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[Raz]

Lately i have been unmotivated to really play CoX mostly because of the constant drama that i see unfolding around me on the global channel and on this forum and other reasons are well my real life is kinda hectic anyhow it really saddens me when i have to type something like this so here goes!.

Recently we have also had alot of new players join the echelon and i really dont know what they must be thinking when the look at the ech global i know what i'd do if it was me i'd probably leave straight away also away from that point im getting very tired of the whole "factions within factions" thing we have going on in the echelon, things like kinders megalo and stormies really put a strain on the SG as a whole and now i know that most of you wont agree with me, and once all the kinders toons are 50 im afraid to say that's that within the echelon you're fine to do it somewhere else but not within the echelon.

I really wanna get this SG back to basics because at the moment is a damn mess and noone is enjoying anything i only have to log on to see a barrage of negativity on the global channel now if you arent happy with this shake up you have two choices really leave or stay and trust in what we are trying to do.

as i said from the start i didn't want to type something like this but im tired just sitting on the sidelines and watching all this go down because its unfair towards all the people that try there hardest to make the echelon a nice place to be!

   

[Plasmarch]

things like kinders megalo and stormies really put a strain on the SG as a whole.

Please clarify.

All Kinders etc represents is a group who team with the same toons on the same day. If there is space, "non-Kinders" toons of a reasonable level (or on occasions, of a completely different one) are welcome to join. Today we had TheShadow and Frazzle along. There's very little difference between that and a regular team, except it's scheduled and we're less open to picking up random non-ech toons from tells.

So I'm afraid I'm not sure what the problem is. There is no practical difference between "Kinders atm" and "already in team".


Also, assuming Kinders 2 happens, how do we do it "outside the Echelon"? Everyone involved is an Echelonite (oooh, new word) and unless you suggest quitting the SG completely.....

So, I don't see what you're getting at here.



On the other hand, if by barrages of negativity on Global you're referring to the interaction between the players, it'll be easier to straighten out with some examples of what you're not liking.

[Smyte]

I still consider myself new to the Echelon, and I dont see anyone being negative to new players coming in (Myself included). Infact I'm trying to pick up people that I'm friends with in-game to join the group.

My RL stuff takes up a heafty chunk of my time and hence I dont have all that much time to spare to join in on alot of group activities, but since joining I have taken part in the odd TF, a fair few teams and the general banter that takes place on the global channel. I would also like to be able to give some more back to the group in the form of orginising TFs and that sort but like I said, I've not got all that much time to spare so I'm contributing in the form off Prestige (750k by the time I ding 50 on my Scrapper is my target but thats beside the point).

All in all, as someone who is 'newish' to the group, I'm pretty chuffed to be part of it, even if it is on a more casual level. Sign me up for another toon when I (finally) get my Scrapper to 50.

[Prov]

At least, 5 people have quit and left the group in the past 2 weeks. The past month, this number is probably doubled. These people were new recruits who had never been a part of the Echelon before. The main reason that came from these people for leaving; the global channel. Some didn't like the kind of chat being used, some didn't feel that fit in, which happens, whilst others, simply didn't like the people. In any case. The global channel is to have a major overhaul, which will involve a clean out of anyone that isn't an Echelon member. It may also include the removal of Mod abilities to anyone other than Leaders, but this change hasn't been decided yet.
There has been way too many negative issues coming from these themed groups. So much so, they are stopping at the earliest opportunity. At least, from being under the Echelon Hat. We don't need to give reasons, and we most certainly don't need to clarify our decisions. We Lead this SG, and decide how things run.
We will, also, be having a detailed look at current ranks within the group. Some people have higher ranks who aren't doing anything for the group to constitute them keeping the position, while others, are working hard, and don't have the title to reflect it. This includes Union and Defiant. Also although, the VG message of the day on Union has been ignored for at least 3 months, anyone who is not meant to be an Overlord, will be giving up their title. We are doing this, with an aim of getting the structure back into place across all groups, however inactive they are, so that when we recruit, it is clear to see what's what. So, we would appreciate your co-operation when we do this.
We've had lots of feedback overall, about the group, from various people over the past few months. This has brought other things to our attention, which will be addressed in the near future.
This thread isn't to get objections to what we are saying, it's to tell you what is going to happen, regardless.

[lion-hart]

Also although, the VG message of the day on Union has been ignored for at least 3 months


I'm not being negative here or having a go and i'm not going into details as i've already made my fellings clear to raz. but as for ignoring (hmmmmm) you know where we are on a monday!!!!

[Chill Bill]

I'm with Plas and Lion on this one.

Kinders and Megalos are the two things that keep me in the Echelon. To me, these 2 long running events are what the Echelon is about more than anything. It's a real shame that the leaders are taking exception to these things especially as they no longer take part in them.

In respect to the Union VG, all the 'inappropriate' Overlords are Megalos players. We have contributed the majority of prestige to the VG so why should we not have a high rank? We all take it in turns to run Megalos as well so we are all actively involved in running Ech events (every week!). As Lion points out, if the leaders need to find us, we are online most Monday nights.

Chill

[Shadow Kitty]

There has been way too many negative issues coming from these themed groups. So much so, they are stopping at the earliest opportunity. At least, from being under the Echelon Hat. We don't need to give reasons, and we most certainly don't need to clarify our decisions.

I would however be very happy if you could clarify the negative issues coming from these themed groups. If we do not get feedback, we cannot rectify any problems that you perceive.

If you care about my opinion in the matter, for me the Kindergarten is the best thing that ever happened to the supergroup! Kindergarten made me feel part of the Echelon again, as I know that there is a team of Echelonites every Monday and Thursday. It has inspired me to start drawing a serious comic. It gave me the energy to build this site!

When it started about a year ago, the Echelon feeling was gone for me. All my toons were out of sync with everyone else's or on the wrong server or on villains. Kindergarten changed that. Kindergarten spurred a whole lot of activity, often making the eight-man limit a problem and at a few times we had to form three teams of Echelon toons. That hasn't happened since, with the exception of the few mothership raids.

The only feedback that has come to my attention is that we were too exclusive. That's not what I feel. Anyone is welcome to join the themed groups, temporarily if there is space (as with any team, really) and permanently if you agree to the theme. And if you look at the global channel, you often see me saying "kinders here, wanna join" when someone asks for a team.

In any way, because of that feedback, I posted the post "What is the Kindergarten" to clarify the situation. But that is the only feedback I've ever had, and it stopped after posting that post so I have assumed that the post did its job.

If there are any other issues with the themed groups, we are only happy to look into them, but we cannot do this if we do not know what the problem is! Please, tell us what the problem is, and I promise that we will look into the matter.

[Shock]

I'm behind you leaders all the way.
Personally I've had discussions with a few unhappy members, possibly on the verge of leaving the SG, and I'd sincerely hope that a shake up will bring them back into the fold.

On the matter of regular events such as kinder, meglo and stormies, I don't 'fully' agree with Raz (-Shock suddenly gets booted from the SG).  I know these may be viewed as elitist events, which is where the problem lies and players maybe shouldn't have guaranteed rights to get their place.  Knowing there's a regular event in the calendar that you know will be well-followed and the team a good size, is actually a good thing and something I've always looked forward to.  Where the change should be is for these to continue but be open to all, irrespective of whether you turn up regularly or can only make the occasional date.
In this way players who don't regularly partake, can join in (no different to a normal team event).  Playing the same toons should be optional, which will also relieve this sort of pressure on players too.  
From a Kinders perspective (I don't play in the Meglo team), I think Kitty has done a great job maintaining this team and her write-ups are really well done.  Ta Kitty.

Concerning Global, don't think I've seen much of the negative side.  Although I'm not as vocal as some on the channel, it is a great rallying point to make it visible what teams are being gathered or what may be going on, etc.  Learned some good info on the channel too based on what members are talking about.  You're right, maybe the membership has spread too far and it should be reduced to core echie members or close coalition groups.  Not sure tbh, pros and cons all round.

I look forward to seeing the changes, and hopefully we can move on and continue to be one of the biggest SG's in CoX.

[Phobos]

in all honesty i like the idea of kinders, megalo etc but sometimes it might not be the thing for me i do enjoy a good team and in the echelon you couldn't find a better team if you tried only thing that keeps me from joining such events is working hours and toons either alredy 50 or not high enough to be of any use to a team as long range SK's are out of the question in my view defenders often the excpetion as their primary is often team support and a buff is a buff no matter what way you split it

as for SG commitments at present i am apart of 2 SG's The Echelon and State of War an SG that i earned leadership rights in by becoming the first lvl 50 in it's ranks but after i5 around 75% of it's members left for obvious reasons only the truly dedicated remain myself, my RL friends and a few others but since joining the echelon i have been eagerly awaiting for the transfer system so i can start teaming proper with other echelonions (new word also )

Long story short i'm here now and not going to go away anytime soon

[Snow Angel]

Long story short i'm here now and not going to go away anytime soon

tis tru, been tryin to get rid of him since i3 lol

Hmmm well cos of work iv never been able to join kinders and wat not but rare occasions have asked for teams and slipped in there when in range. But i spose im behind prov as they are the leaders.

Working funny times as i am i only really get to play around midnight for as long as i can stop myself passing out with 10 cans of redbull. Roll on char transfer me say

[Heatshock]

now now - every1 calm down.
change is good.  not easy, but good i feel.  generally in favour of wot leaders said abt need for change.  Also recognise that leaderships hav a right to make these changes w/o explanation.  Now... that said....

(1)  Kinders.  I must say that this THE event that made me feel part of the echelon.  Like Kitty; I am not on as much as other regular players, and gave me the opportunity to mix with the new and old players.  The "all keep to same level ish" idea also helped players like me; cos I dotn level fast.  but thanks to the event - got to play with old horses like Raz, Snow, Mighty... people I must admit; I prob wouldnt hav met in regular play cos of my limited commitment.

Is it Elitist?  Gawd no.  But it is a regular event whose original intent was for loads of people to take part and level to gether.  i remember when we split perfectly good teams into 2 when more peeps appeared; and we still do that on occasion if people did show up or ask to join.  Kitty has always invited peeps onto the Kinders event; even if levels were very diff.

But it is an event that has a definitive forward movt ie we need to be of a certain level to do this TF or that trial etc.  So although Kinders is generally welcoming - it is based on peeps being abt a certain level. 

The impt point is Kinders/Megas/Stormies is not like a regular PUG.  Its almost like soemone organising a STF being accused of being an elitist cos we only allow L45-50 players on it (d'uh!).  we arent even that strict on that rule - remember occasions where we've put back a TF cos we had some new blood in below the requirements.

I feel the accusation that a regular event is a "faction within faction" is a fudnamental misunderstanding of wot these events abt.  Well if leaders feeel no regular events should take place fine.  But at least on that point I think Kitty (who has put in loads of commitment and time to it) as well as all Kinders participants (past and present) deserve, at least some sort of clarification on.  Even if it is anonymised.

And does this mean no more regular events as well?  eg TF nite? cos then that might be called an elitist event too?  eg someone with no L35s saying that Echelon LGTF is being elitist?

Oh kitty - how bout new plot - ROUGE KINDERS!!!
"In 2007 a crack superhero unit was sent into exile by their own SG leadership for a crime they didn't commit. These men(/women/kheldian/animals)  promptly escaped into the Paragon City underground. Today, still wanted by the Echelon Leadership they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the Rogue Kinders" Pa Pa pa!!! Pa pa paaaaaa. (come on every1 join in)
idea is - we all go on HIDE and play as Echelonians OUTSIDE the echelon!!  No postings on forums, private pms only, new toons not included in Echies roster.

(2) 

constant drama that i see unfolding around me on the global channel and on this forum

soz I must be really missing something here. seriously?  been ignored at times, but never been bad mouthed b4, or see bad blood .....  ok ok there is some friction betwen certain peeps, btu u get that in all organisations. 

Guess it prob feels a little more daunting in the echelon - cos we are quite a close knit grp; and we do take the piss lots out of each other.  Is it cos of factions? Cos of regular events?  Well i didnt think so before. 

Could we make a newbie feel mroe welcome? yes i guess we could; funnily it was a cross SG event like Kinders that made me feel welcomed into SG  hows that for ironic.  Perhaps new "meet the new recruits" nite in SG base?

(3) revamp the SG/VG - all for that. whether it means a waster like me gets booted or not; still for it   I know I dont put the most time into the SG;  but I must say that The Echelon has been the most active, welcoming and friendly of SGs I hav joined.  Do we all like each other - hell no *glares  at every1* but we are tolerant, able to discuss things frankly and avoid each other if need be.  And after all - isnt that wot family is all about?

(4)  new members that have left - well..... to feel part of a grp; u hav to BE part of te grp dont u?  cant say I dont talk much - then blame peeps for not inviting u to a team.  I guess I am not the quietest person around, and I do butt my nose into teams of people whom I dont usually know. But still, some effort has to be put in by both parties. I hav always tried to make new recruites feel as welcomed as possible.

(5)  Left cos didnt like the people.  Well not much we can do abt that I guess.  Only can say sorry abt that - hope u find another grp u like!! GL.
(4)  SG rankings - hell kick me down to dogs-body if need me Raz mate.  dont think I hav been much use to SG admin aside from comedic relief.

[Evil Janet]

I agree with Smyte and Kitty and mostly everyone. I don't understand the negative comments on global chat, unless it happens when I'm not around (Kinders and Meglo both happen when I'm not around *shrugs*)

I have to say though that comments to the effect of "we are the leaders, we don't have to explain ourselves" is rather despotic and draconian. People need to know where they are going wrong... many errors are commited in ignorance rather than spite.

Will always drop anything to help a fellow Echie.

Speak good of the Echelon to others.

TF and team when I can.

Contribute regularly to the forum.

Maybe we should have a charter drawn up?!

[Evil Janet]

(4)  new members that have left - well..... to feel part of a grp; u hav to BE part of te grp dont u?  I hav always tried to make new recruites feel as welcomed as possible.  But it is a 2 way street as well. 

(

Hit the nail on the head there mate!

And I thought I was the voice of reason! (wow - I think it was me and now I think it was Heat - that's scarey!!)

[Prov]

OK firstly. Nothing said by any Leader here has been easily decided. People have come to us in trust, and we are not about to crap on that by telling everyone the reasons why we have come to our decisions.
Sometimes, I really wish that you could all see some of the crap we have to deal with.
The two founding Leaders of this SG have left because of events and people within the ranks - WE CAN NOT IGNORE THIS! And we aren't about to.
As far as Kinders is concerned. I think it' an awesome concept. The idea works, and the fact that it brings SG players together is awesome. However, we cannot ignore the issues that have arrison from it. None of us are stopping you from doing it, you all know each other, so can easily still organise it. I guess what we are trying to say, is that it won't be exclusively tying up the calendar anymore. I for one, will be organising events which will conflict with it, as in the very near future, this will be the only time I can get online.
The only person who is actually organising anything other then Kinders or Meglo or Stormies, is Shock. Granted, there is the odd event from others, but, from a massive group of people, like The Echelon, it's s shame that more events aren't planned. Probably many reasons for this, one of them being, 3 of your days in game are taken up by scheduled weekly groups. People steer clear of arranging anything on these days, for fear of not gettin a turn out. Maybe if we can put accross that it's fine to double book a day, we might be able to work this all out.
We definately need to work on the global channel. People have joined recently and left within a couple of days, based on things that were said on it. This means, no foul language and no crudeness. It also means that anyone who doesn't have an Echelon toon, will be removed. This is how the channel was always intended to be, and the way it will be again.
I really am sorry that us, as Leaders appear to have taken a stance on this. And I wish things were different. But we simply cannot ignore recent departures. Nor can we divulge our reasons without going back on people's trust. But it says something when these people feel they can't approach the people in question.
Groups will be looked at over the weekend, and work on the global channel will start immediately.

[Evil Janet]

Well that has clarified a few things for me, thanks.

As an ex-SG leader I can fully appreciate the "behind-the-scenes" grief that happens and that the large part of the SG are blissfully unaware of!